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Eric Gaidin
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PostSubject: 4E Game Mechanics   Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:25 am

This is a great spot to start our discussion regarding 4E vs. 3.5. Instead of bashing 4E, I'd actually like to remind everyone why 3.5 was bagged in the first place. Let's start with classes. If you'll all remember, there was absolutely no reason to play a sorcerer in 3.5. They had fewer spells AND they advanced much more slowly through the spell levels. The only reason to play a sorcerer was for roleplaying purposes. That's a bit of a broken class. The other broken class was the ranger. The archery version was basically pointless. I also remember there was a problem with monks, but I've been so distanced from 3.5 that I can't remember.

Secondly, game mechanics like grapple were horribly broken. You know it's a broken rule when a four-part segment is published on the WotC web site explaining it. Here's the link to that article by Skip Williams: Grappling is Craptastic

I'm going to move on to more neutral territory. Balance. The classes in 3.5 were horribly unbalanced. The wizard was hands down the most powerful class in the game. However, the wizard COULD run out of spells. In our sessions, I rarely saw this happen, though it admittedly sucked when it did. The cleric didn't have much to do in combat but heal people. They were essentially a crappy caster and a crappy fighter. Now, to play devil's advocate here, I am starting to believe that unbalanced classes are only unbalanced when one considers a single context to compare them: combat. However, 3.5 was focused on so much more than that single context. However, 4E has attempted to focus on other contexts of the game, primarily with the Skill Challenge mechanic. I don't know too much about this mechanic but I'd like to write an article about it when I do.

So, that brings me to 4E. 4E is more balanced, which I sincerely think was the entire point of the revamp. Every character can now do something substantial in combat. However, this comes at a price. The 4E classes are pidgeon-holed in roles. Wizards are controllers, clerics are leaders, and so on. Some of the new builds in the accessory books are helping to shy away from that a tad, but the game designers will always create builds that fit into those roles. Ironically, this is actually not hard to fix. WotC could devote one whole book to creating characters of classes with different roles. It could be called Breaking the Mould, or something. I'd buy that book in a heartbeat.

Also, skills and multi-classing are very weak in 4E. I'm hoping that these get a revamp in 4.5. Who knows when that's going to hit the shelves. With skills, you're either trained in a skill or you're not. I miss the cross-class-skills game mechanic from 3.5. It was a fantastic way to create a unique character. "My fighter's going to sneak down the hallway. Why can he do that in all that armor, even with the Armor Check Penalty? Because I spent 30 skill points on Stealth, just so he has a +10!" It was fantastic just to have that option. The same can be said for multi-classing. However, I'm planning on multi-classing Andreas just so I can see how the multi-classing works in-game.

I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks.
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Rikan
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PostSubject: Re: 4E Game Mechanics   Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:19 am

I will have to agree with you in terms of power balance in the different editions.

But just to go back to 3.5 for a moment, think back to when you're a fresh new wizard out of wizard school, and you come into contact with a fighter, or barbarian. Who do you think will win? Lvl 1 wizard or Lvl 1 fighter? and let's fast forward to clock to lvl 10, now the fight would seem more balanced, out of combat skills would be slightly in favor of the wizard, but overall semi balanced. Now go to lvl 20, boom wizard hands down. You just have to look at the time line as s whole. In the beginning the Warriors are there to protect the cloth wearers and take some hits for them, and eventually they get sick of it and tell the casters to start pulling their own. Finally comes the day were mama duck has to let little duck go loose and become a crazy overpowering swan, with the exception of Anti-Magic field of course.

Also a nicely cross-classed Cleric, or Druid would destroy a wizard any day. All depends how one plays.
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Eric Gaidin
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PostSubject: Re: 4E Game Mechanics   Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:56 pm

A wizard actually started coming out on top at lvl 7 when they earned fourth lvl spells. Charm Monster was crazy--everyone's your friend!
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Peter
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PostSubject: Re: 4E Game Mechanics   Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:22 pm

I miss skills and i think we should bring them back. Who says we can't play 4th ed and still use skill rules from 3.5.
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Stitch
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PostSubject: Re: 4E Game Mechanics   Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:55 am

Peter wrote:
I miss skills and i think we should bring them back. Who says we can't play 4th ed and still use skill rules from 3.5.

I was thinking that myself. Seems like an easy fix.
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Peter
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PostSubject: Re: 4E Game Mechanics   Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:16 pm

I agree. It would be simple to just use the rules from 3.5 for everything relating to skills. I don't think this would change anything else, and it would make the game alot better from my opinion. Mart, would you allow that?
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PostSubject: Re: 4E Game Mechanics   Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:34 pm

Actually, no. The skills in 4.0 are severely lacking in my opinion. They don't hold a torch to 3.5 skills. However, the skills system is designed to allow players who want to focus on that aspect of their character to shine through skill challenges. It's designed for balance. I may not like how they work compared to 3.5 skills, but in this case trying to mix the 2 game systems would throw a lot out of whack. I'm willing to DM in whichever system the group as a whole prefers, but I will be DMing entirely within that rules set with VERY few exceptions. 4th edition grapple rules, for example, will come with us no matter what system we use hehe.

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Peter
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PostSubject: Re: 4E Game Mechanics   Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:41 pm

What about fire cube rules? and diagonal rules? would those stay also?
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Rikan
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PostSubject: Re: 4E Game Mechanics   Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:40 pm

correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't this belong under General 4E chat?

Anywho just came across some fun tips for everybody.


1. The number of times that you can use a daily power granted by a magic item is limited by level.

I didn't realize this. On page 226 of the PHB it points out that from level 1-10 you can only use 1 magic item daily power pre day. Regardless of the item. If you are level 1-10 and use a daily power from a magic item, you cannot use any daily power from any other (Or the same) magic item until after an extended rest. From level 11-20 this increases to two such uses and from 21-30 this becomes 3 such uses. I guess you'd better really think about it when it comes to using a magic item's daily use.

Just adding to this: you CAN use more than one magic item daily power at Heroic Tier. The catch? You have to reach a milestone first. Suddenly, extended rests don't seem like the best thing to do after each encounter.



----->Most big creatures (including dragons and such) do *not* have threatening reach... meaning no AO's unless you are adjacent to them.<-------------

(PHB 295) When you reduce a monster to 0 hp you get to choose if you either knock it unconscious or kill it. (i.e. instead of nonlethal damage).

(PHB 62/90) clerics and pals don't need to wield their implements like wizards etc. They can just hang them round their neck. Cue the party cleric swapping quick draw for shield proficiency!

(PHB 59) Powers with a hit that also have an effect still get the benefit of their effect even if the power misses. As the DM I didn't give some of my players the benefit from their attacks. <I have been unable to find any effect that counters this claim. Not that I've scoured every power, mind you. I only get paid so much and with so much free time.>



(PHB 285) You do not need to hold a weapon in order to obtain combat advantage through a flank. You can be armed or unarmed.

(PHB 294) Temporary hit points don't stack.

(PHB 292)Standing up from prone no longer provokes attacks of opportunity.

(PHB 278) Sneak attack does not max on a crit.<False, it does max on a crit. Only damage that requires a crit to activate needs to be rolled.>

(PHB 76) When a fighters Combat Challenge is trigged due to a marked, adjacent enemy shifting, the shift is not interrupted. It's just that the triggered action (melee basic attack by the fighter) occurs before the shift is completed.

(PHB, page 287-288) Charge is a standard action, so you can still take a move action in the same round.

(PHB 295) You can only fail 3 Death Saving Throws TOTAL between short (or extended) rests. So if you go down, fail 2, get back up, go down again, and fail 1, you are D-E-D, dead.

No Action points during Surprize rounds.
Says so under the Surprize round in PHB and such.

When you subject to a healing effect that requires you to spend a healing surge and you have none left, you are restored to 1 hit point, if you were dying. --> pg. 295






Whole list can be found here
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1095104
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Rikan
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PostSubject: Re: 4E Game Mechanics   Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:56 pm

RESISTS ???

Quote:
Resistance doesn’t reduce damage unless the target has resistance to each type of damage from the attack, and then only the weakest of the resistances applies. For example, a creature that has resist 10 lightning and resist 5 thunder that takes 15 lightning and thunder damage takes 10 damage because the resistance value to the combined damage types is limited by the lesser of the two resistances.
Let's say that a creature with Resist X Fire is attacked by a Fire Giant. The Fire Giant does 1d12+6 damage plus 2d8 fire damage. Does the creature with Resist X Fire resist any damage from the Fire Giant's attack?

One argument is that the above rule requires a creature to have both Resist X All and Resist X Fire in order to take less damage from the Fire Giant's attack -- since the attack does both untyped damage and fire damage. Another argument is that the above rule doesn't apply to untyped damage, so a creature need only have Resist X Fire in order to take less damage from the Fire Giant's attack. Thoughts?
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Rikan
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PostSubject: Re: 4E Game Mechanics   Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:16 pm

lets say you are a half elf paladin and you pick the eyebite power from the warlock class as an encounter power. Could you then multiclass and get that power as an encounter power again 2x encounter?

the answer.......yes you can.


A Natural 20 is an automatic hit, not an automatic critical. You still have to add up your total attack modifiers and hit the defense for it to be a critical. (Very rarely does this rule come into play, but it's good to know)
Don't you actually have to make a second attack roll, which has to be a hit, to get the critical?
Nope. This was true in 3.5e, but not in 4e.



When searching a room for loot/treasure/whatever, not only can you run with a Try Again Until It Works Retest every round as long as you've got time with no penalty for each failure, but the rules explicitly say that, without time constraints, you're supposed to be assumed to have rolled a 20. (DMG pg 41)




--->>And for those future warlock out there!!


The Warlock's shadowstep concealment allows him to make a Stealth check. (Not true, it only grants concealment, not total concealment needed for stealth)
If the warlock wants to use shadowstep concealment to make a Stealth check, it is automatically at -5 for having had to move 3 squares. (Not true see above)

Yes, a warlock can make stealth checks with shadow walk, as long as they are already hidden and as long as they continue constantly using both standard and move actions to move no less than 3 squares and no more than 4 squares altogether in a turn. Effectively, warlocks get free concealment in broad daylight as long as they keep moving very slowly and only use minor actions.

In summary, just to make things clear, Shadow Walk doesn't allow you to make a stealth check to hide, but it does allow you to make a stealth check to remain hidden.
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The Lord-General
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PostSubject: Re: 4E Game Mechanics   Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:31 pm

Bring back THACO!
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Eric Gaidin
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PostSubject: Re: 4E Game Mechanics   Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:46 pm

Rikan wrote:


(PHB 59) Powers with a hit that also have an effect still get the benefit of their effect even if the power misses. As the DM I didn't give some of my players the benefit from their attacks. <I have been unable to find any effect that counters this claim. Not that I've scoured every power, mind you. I only get paid so much and with so much free time.>

Here's the actual text. Not ALL effects occur on a miss, but I guess it would have to say specifically within the power's text.
P. 59:
"Many powers produce effects that take place regardless
of whether your attack roll succeeds, and other
powers have effects that occur without an attack roll
being required."

Stas, thanks for these. It clarifies things a bit. It's pretty incredible that a dragon doesn't have reach regarding AoO.

Rikan wrote:
----->Most big creatures (including dragons and such) do *not* have threatening reach... meaning no AO's unless you are adjacent to them.<-------------

Any idea what book and page number this is? I find this hard to believe. Thanks again!
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Eric Gaidin
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PostSubject: Re: 4E Game Mechanics   Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:50 pm

I found the answer myself. P. 290 of PHB:

"Threatening Reach: Some creatures have an ability
called threatening reach. This lets them make opportunity
attacks against nonadjacent enemies. If an enemy
leaves a square that’s within the creature’s reach, or if
an enemy anywhere within the creature’s reach makes
a ranged attack or an area attack, the creature can
make an opportunity attack against that enemy."
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Rikan
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PostSubject: Re: 4E Game Mechanics   Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:55 pm

well there ya go.
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Eric Gaidin
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PostSubject: Re: 4E Game Mechanics   Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:16 am

I'm surprised that dragons don't have this ability, seems a little silly that a gargantuan creature only threatens five feet in front of its car-sized tooth.
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PostSubject: Re: 4E Game Mechanics   Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:49 am

I think it's a special power/ability stated on certain monsters in the book.
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Eric Gaidin
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PostSubject: Re: 4E Game Mechanics   Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:29 am

Oh I understand, but why not dragons? They're the iconic monsters of the game and they don't have reach? Just odd.
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