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 3.5 Sorcerers

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Eric Gaidin
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PostSubject: 3.5 Sorcerers   Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:03 am

It seems to me that there's an easy way to fix 3.5 sorcerers. First, lets look at the boon of being a sorcerer. Really, it comes down to spell preparation. They don't need it. As long as they get some rest, they're good to go--no spellbook to worry about. Lets admit, the source of their power makes for some great roleplaying too. Who doesn't want to claim they have dragon blood? This is awesome if your a player that really enjoys the roleplaying aspect of the game. It's fantastic fodder for a personal story and is a base for character personality.

That said, the most common problem with sorcerers is that they have slow spell advancement. A sorcerer's spell selection is already limited, and so I believe they've already paid for their "no need to memorize spells" with this limited selection. Why retard their advancement?

Sorcerers should follow the same spell advancement as wizards. At 3rd lvl they get 2nd lvl spells, not 4th. 3.5 penalized the sorcerer too harshly for the ability to cast without a spellbook.
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PostSubject: Re: 3.5 Sorcerers   Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:44 am

Another way to reverse the nerfing done to sorcerers could be to grant them a free metamagic feat every 4 or 5 levels. They may get spells slower, but they could do some NASTY stuff with those spells and not have to use up all their feats doing it. That's the way I picture a sorcerer. Just my 2 copper.

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Eric Gaidin
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PostSubject: Re: 3.5 Sorcerers   Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:48 pm

Are you suggesting that sorcerers become Tim the Enchanter from Monty Python?

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The Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: 3.5 Sorcerers   Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:18 am

the difference feat wise between wizards and sorcerers is really only 2 feats- scribe scroll, and one metamagic feat. At level 6 there is no reason for a sorcerer not to take a prestige class- none. most wizards prestige too so getting feats every 5 levels is pretty much irrelevant

scribe scroll is easily balanced out by the fact that because sorcerers use cha as their casting stat- this makes use magic device very easy to use effectively allowing the sorc to access cleric and druid spells very early... not to mention a dwarven thrower

wizards and sorcerers also have the same caster level so it's not like a sorcerer's fireball is any worse than a wizards

being 1 level behind but being able to choose on the fly is a fair trade


what's not a fair trade is the metamagic nerf- sorcerers need to be able to use quicken spell. period. quicken is the defining feat that makes casters better than anyone else- that is the real reason that sorcerers suck.
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Rikan
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PostSubject: Re: 3.5 Sorcerers   Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:33 pm

I'd encourage you to help out the poor sorcerer by allowing the PHB2 variant where they don't get a familiar but instead have no time penalty for adding metamagic to spells (thus opening up quicken to them, plus still spells for when grappled and so forth). This will help them to keep up with wizards a bit better at high levels.
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The Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: 3.5 Sorcerers   Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:29 am

there's also a feat called rapid metamagic that eliminates the extra casting time- i think it can be taken at level 9 and i can't imagine not taking that feat
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Rikan
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PostSubject: Re: 3.5 Sorcerers   Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:29 am

Quote :
there's also a feat called rapid metamagic that eliminates the extra casting time- i think it can be taken at level 9 and i can't imagine not taking that feat

that too
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Eric Gaidin
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PostSubject: Re: 3.5 Sorcerers   Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:31 pm

The Pirate wrote:
that is the real reason that sorcerers suck.

Well, the real reason sorcerers suck is because of their crummy spell progression. Sorcerers are always 1 level behind wizards. Plus, if a wizard specializes, a sorcerers extra spell slots are no longer much of a factor--the sorcerer is only about 2 spell slots ahead.

There really is no reason to play a 3.5 sorcerer. Pathfinder fixes sorcerers beautifully, by the way.
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The Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: 3.5 Sorcerers   Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:36 am

i haven't checked out pathfinder- i must do this

it's not the number of spells wizards can prep- it's how many they can effectively use. wizards often have wasted spells- things like a glitterdust sitting there at the end of the day. so while it looks like there's only a 2 slot difference per spell level, it's also true that most of the time a wizards going to have at least 1 or 2 wasted slots per level on average as well- so that's more like 4 spells per level which means by level 20 sorcerers can cast 36 more spells per day than a wizard- and still never look at a rope trick wishing it was one more scorching ray.


being a spell level behind is annoying, but like i said, it's not like a sorcerers fireballl does less damage. also there aren't many spells that don't have a comparable lower level spell. wizard casts fireball- sorcerer casts scorching ray... not a big difference at all.

at low levels having more usable spells is a big advantage. that stays true up until about level 9-12 which is when wizards gain access to quicken spell. the sorcerer can handle being a spell level behind since there's such a small difference between the effects of one spell level and the next. what he can't keep up with is a wizard casting 2 spells for every one of his.
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Eric Gaidin
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PostSubject: Re: 3.5 Sorcerers   Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:08 pm

Pirate, I'll get ya Pathfinder. Pathfinder answers your prayers regarding Quicken Spell:

p. 112: "Sorcerers and Bards: Sorcerers and bards choose spells
as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their
spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve
them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses
up a higher-level spell slot. Because the sorcerer or bard has
not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he
must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such
a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic
spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to
cast a regular spell. If the spell’s normal casting time is
a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a fullround
action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same
as a 1-round casting time.) The only exception is for spells
modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can
be cast as normal using the feat.

For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra
full-round action to cast the spell."

What do you think?
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The Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: 3.5 Sorcerers   Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:55 pm

so then spells with a casting time other than 1 standard action are uneffected by the increase in casting time? hmm.... i'll have to see how i can think to abuse that.

yes, i think that making that simple change puts a sorcerer at least on par with a wizards and quite possibly much better
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Eric Gaidin
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PostSubject: Re: 3.5 Sorcerers   Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:22 pm

The Pirate wrote:
hmm.... i'll have to see how i can think to abuse that.

We wouldn't expect anything else!
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