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Uncle Mart
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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:52 am

I hate you both.

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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:59 am

I was going to reply that I'm cool with the plan and will dance circles around our foe while I lay the hurt on him...

...but now all I can imagine is NSYNC spontaneously playing and our party having a dance-off vs the Vamp and his minions...ending in a group pose with our arms crossed over our chests as the undead slink back to the shadows in shameful defeat...

Andreas then steps forward and declares "You've been served..."

Instant 10k XP!
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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:02 am

Ok well back to real life. And by real life i mean D&D. I think that strategy is great. We should be able to take care of the minions very quickly, then move on to help the other three with the vampire.
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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:08 am

Perhaps I failed to adequately describe the scene for you guys. There are a LOT of spawn. I had considered using swarm rules for them at one point...

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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:19 am

Oh...that's not good.
Are they advancing upon us quickly, or does it seem like we could potentially engage the Vamp first and get a couple rounds with him before they reach us?
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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:20 am

Could you give us an estimate on the number of spawn. I can probably take out 15 the first round, then hopefully 5 or 6 each next round.
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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:51 am

A staircase directly ahead of you, about 40 feet from the closest party member, leads up another 50 feet to a raised platform where the lord is standing. There's a coffin in the center of that platform, and spires at each corner glowing with arcane runes. That raised platform is in the center of the rather large cavern you find yourself in. The walls and ceiling seem alive as the vampire spawn crawl across them. Because of the dim light and the distance you can't make out how many there are exactly, but you would estimate more than 100 of the vile creatures. They are not advancing on you at the moment, though they are obviously aware of your presence. They probably await your answer to their masters ultimatum. Any character acting quickly enough should be able to close the distance between yourselves and the master, but you would have only moments to act before the spawn close on you.

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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:13 pm

Wow this is going to be a great battle. Over a hundred spawn! Bring it on!

Eric these spawn are all ours.
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Eric Gaidin
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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:43 pm

Uncle Mart wrote:
I hate you both.

LOL--love ya Mart! geek
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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:01 pm

In the immortal words of Gimli, son of Gloin, "Easy lad, there's plenty for the both of us."

If there's 100 spawn that's going to change things up quite a bit. When a group gets swarmed the only tactic left is to form a tight circle. Prevent flanking at all costs. Fight whatever gets in your face. If we need to move, we move in a close knot. Communication is key here, as well as initiative order. Fighting back-to-back is the way to go here folks, given the overwhelming numbers. Well, on second thought, back-to-back or fighting wedge.

I've diagramed the fighting wedge formation below. It makes it very difficult for an enemy to flank us, being the enemy would be skewered by many PCs if they try. The fighting wedge works in two directions. First, the group can advance with the number 3 position in the front. This is useful if the character in position three has an uber-effective ability or power that MUST be used against a foe. The other way of moving in the fighting wedge formation is with positions 1 and 5 at the front. I think this would be more effective for us. Ideally, a striker and a defender should take the 1 and 5 positions if we advance forward in the wedge. The striker deals the most damage to the vamp and the defender attempts to keep the vamp occupied (damage sponge anyone?).

Either the fighting wedge or back-to-back will work. Free actions can be done on others' turns (just looked it up in the PHB) so we can shout to one another to get in formation if we have to.

1---5
-2-4
--3
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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:06 pm

by the sound of it, we'll goin balls deep in this one. should prove to be entertaining.
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Peter
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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:03 pm

Well since we do probably have time to make it to the vampire, we could charge up in the wedge and surround him. I don't like this strategy because then the spawn are going to be bugging us the whole time we are trying to fight the vampire.

1V5
2--4
--3



What i recommend is:

We start in your formation, 1 and 5 being me and Eric, we can start towards the vampire, killing as many spawn possible, and break apart towards the flanks making room for the other three to come up the middle and get to the vampire. Then, even though we are flanked by spawn, we can easily use sword burst to kill all the vampires around us. Then, the rogue and the goliath come up the middle and put some pressure on the vampire, and the cleric can shoot his radiant attacks from a little farther away, and heal us when we need it, since he is out of range.


S= spawn
V=vampire
1=eric
5=peter
2=jay
4=stas
3=andrew

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
-SS1SSSSSSSSVSSSSSSSS5SS
---SSS---------2---4----------SSS

-------------------3


Now, i don't know how well this is actually going to work, but i figure this would allow me and eric to best make use of our sword bursts and ability to kill multiple enemies at the same time. it sounds to me like this vampire is going to take a while to kill, and we are going to want the spawn off our backs.
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Peter
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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:08 pm

Mart, since the vampire is waiting for us to accept his offer, can we have a surprise round if we don't say anything and just charge in?
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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:49 pm

Copied over from

http://unclemart.forumotion.com/dm-tabletop-f3/to-fight-or-not-to-fight-that-is-the-question-t9.htm


Like the squad of mighty ducks, I feel it my duty to spearhead this assault. I believe if we charge Whiteface and fight him where he stands we should have he upper hand. We'll be on equal footing, and it'll allow for many of us to flank, and more importantly not allow for many foes to flank us. hopefully if we destroy him those arcane looking towers are next. But now that i think of it, maybe they are holding him in place, as if a magic prison cell. We must act quickly!!!!!!!!!

*digs feet into the ground*
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Eric Gaidin
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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:15 am

Pete--have you ever played with Mart as a DM? You think those spawn are going to line up nicely like that, leaving the three position all by their lonesome? We're going to be swarmed. Everyone's going to be hacking. Those spawn are going to encircle our entire party. THAT'S why we need to either clump together in a tight circle OR form the fighting wedge. Both of those formations make it incredibly difficult to be FLANKED. We need to prevent being flanked. That's the cardinal rule when fighting a swarm. When you allow yourself to get flanked by multiple opponents you greatly increase the chance of getting hit. Increase in the chance of getting hit is a direct relationship to taking more damage. Makes it easier to die--see the logic? I was pushing the fighting wedge formation because it still allows the party to move more easily, as long as communication doesn't break down.

If we form a fighting wedge and attempt to move towards the vampire, one single character needs to lead. We can't have party members saying, "But I want to go this way!" The formation will break apart and we'll get swarmed, flanked, and fucked.

Also, Pete, if you and I WADE into the spawn apart from one another we're dead. Being flanked by 8 different baddies is not what I intend on doing. Spawn are vampires too, if you'll recall. These aren't goblins we're facing, minions or not.
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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:49 am

Rikan wrote:
...hopefully if we destroy him those arcane looking towers are next. But now that i think of it, maybe they are holding him in place, as if a magic prison cell.

...or maybe even empowering him. Either way, we should see if he is willing/able to leave that position.


Are the stairs crafted in such a way that we could use them as a location to stand our ground and funnel the sawn to our wedge?...or will they simply be able to climb up the sides or drop down on us? Granted, this puts the Lord Vamp at our back, but in this position one of us could potentially peel off to keep him occupied (or peel off in rotation to drop Dailys on him, etc...).
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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:58 am

That where roleplaying is going to come into place. we are going to have to try to trick him to see what those towers are, and see if he can leave. For all we know, they might just be decoration
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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:03 am

The stairs are about 10 feet wide, so 2 people can go up side by side. There are no rails on either side though. Vamps have spider climb, so climbing up and/or dropping down is definitely possible for them.

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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:05 am

O they have spiderclimb. I guess that makes sense since they are crawling over the ceiling and walls.
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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:31 am

I've edited my sticky post in the DM Tabletop regarding what is appropriate for which section of the forum. Please check that out if you haven't already.

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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:29 am

Pete, I also wanted to point out the other flaw in your formation diagram. From the looks of it, you're assuming the vamps would be coming at you from one direction. You're already surrounded son, they just haven't dropped to the floor yet.

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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:40 pm

ohhh snap.

everybody huddle up then an we can move in a fighter rectangle.
fighter on the outsides and healer in the middle.

12( warden, rogue)
3 (cleric)
45(swordmages)

hmm?
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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:40 pm

Quote :
Pete, I also wanted to point out the other flaw in your formation diagram. From the looks of it, you're assuming the vamps would be coming at you from one direction. You're already surrounded son, they just haven't dropped to the floor yet.


Yeah that was before i realized they have spider climb. Theres no ways thats going to work. Now fighter rectangle, i kinda like that idea
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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:06 am

The Fighting Rectangle is a weaker version of the Wedge. Let me explain why. As in chess, the D&D board is divided up by squares. And also just like chess, a player gains a major advantage by controlling area (this is one of the two cardinal objectives in chess which are to control area, and control material [i.e. game pieces]). In D&D terms, area = threatened squares with melee attacks, especially being we're going to be swarmed. Therefore, an easy way to compare the two formations is to compare the number of squares that are threatened by our PCs in each formation. Consider:

Fighting Rectangle

xxxx
x12x
x3xx
x45x
xxxx

Squares threatened = 15

Fighting Wedge

PPxxxPP
Pxx1xxP
xx2x3xx
x4xxx5x
xxxPxxx

Squares threatened = 23
(P = placeholder)

As you can see, the fighting wedge threatens 50% more squares and thus allows a group to control more area, giving the group a substantial tactical advantage. The fighting rectangle is less efficient and does not provide any better coverage to the cleric, who can heal at a close burst 5 anyways and thus heal every party member regardless of his position in the fighting wedge.

Note, if we ever get a character who has a reach of 2 with a melee weapon, the wedge would be devastating.
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PostSubject: Re: Vampires--crap, grab some garlic   Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:16 am

The fighting wedge definitely threatens more squares, but the fighting rectangle provides less opportunity to get flanked. What do we want, more offense or better defense. I say defense.
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